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Perl 6 Summary for 2005-05-03 through 2005-05-17

All~

Welcome ot another fortnight's summary. Wouldn't it just figure that I can't think of anything sufficiently non-sequiterish to amuse myself. Perhaps I need a running gag like Leon Brocard or chromatic's cummingseque capitalization.... Maybe I should start one and not tell you. That could be fun.

Perl 6 Compiler

pugs commit emails

If you have ever been foolish enough to want to get an email for every commit in Pugs, Sam Vilain created a way to help you sip from the firehose. Have fun.

groups-beta.google.com#286f5a062264ee23

given when nested

Luke Palmer had a question about how nested when statements in a given block should act. His intuition disagreed with Pugs, but most others supported Pugs.

groups-beta.google.com#ae383ce46fd7b5fd

I don't need to walk around in circles

Autrijus has made Pugs into a registered compiler for Parrot. Since Pugs already allowed you to embed parrot code (well pir anyway) directly into perl 6, this allows you to embed the perl 6 in your pir in your perl 6. Now the possibilities are endless, at least until you blow your mental stack. Those of you with tail call optimization in your mental stack may simply go into an infinite loop if you prefer.

groups-beta.google.com#76b3a96677269d8c

xor on lists

Trewth Seeker expressed his opinion about the proper definition of xor quite strongly. Unfortunately, his opinion is at odds with established mathematics, as Mark Biggar pointed out to him.

groups-beta.google.com#64a06cc494ffd6ac

PGE features update

Patrick provided an update on the state of the Perl Grammar Engine. It has many nifty new features.

groups-beta.google.com#1c76f7aaa60db60c

Pugs on Cygwin

Rob Kinyon and Gaal Yahas worked to improve Pugs support for Cygwin. Unfortunately the thread winds down with an unanswered question, fortunately Stevan clued me in on IRC that things are working just yet.

groups-beta.google.com#1a6127fc512f3042

Pugs gets some objects and some rules

Autrijus announced that Pugs now has basic support for Objects and Rules. Sometimes he scares me. Usually he just makes me really want to learn haskell though.

groups-beta.google.com#048f7c691486ebfb

regression test

Miroslav Silovic provided a regression test for hyper ops. Some people just don't appreciate the fun of regressing.

groups-beta.google.com#07e4d4fb94cb9b8c

basic test for classes

Stevan Little provided a patch for a simple object test. Autrijus applied it. Odd, cause I am pretty sure that Stevan has the commit bit...

groups-beta.google.com#fe404aea60d99b7f

torturing PGE

Juerd provided a link to a big rule that could segfault PGE. Kind reminds me of a homework assignment I had to create a regular expression which matched all strings of numbers that did not contain any repeated digits. Easy in perl, but hard in math. I think the resultant regex was somewhere around 17 MB.

groups-beta.google.com#8f58d037069d30c3

Pugs 6.2.3 with Live CD

Autrijus released Pugs 6.2.3 which contains 10% more awesome then Pugs 6.2.2. You should check it out on the live CD that Ingo Blechschmidt released.

groups-beta.google.com#6d583eb2e080a85a -- release anouncement

groups-beta.google.com#d8085652bc85fe9d -- live CD

PXPerl meets Pugs

Gr\xE9goire P\xE9an announced that he has added Pugs binaries to his windows distribution of Perl. Pretty cool. Autrijus innocently asked him to take on the slightly larger task of producing binaries of Parrot too, so that Pugs could be at its more powerful.

groups-beta.google.com#a4797d46952f98eb

Parrot

Wow did you see how I mentioned Parrot before going into. That was like an awesome transition. My high school english teachers would be so proud...

character classes

Patrick wants character class opcodes of the form find first and find first not. Leo pointed him to some hysterical raisins who might help.

groups-beta.google.com#a2cb3834be55832d

PGE on MinGW

Fran\xE7ois Perrad fixed a problem with building PGE on MinGW. Patrick applied the patch.

groups-beta.google.com#dc9f6a1c35fb2475

PIO_fdopen return value

Luke Palmer both intoduced me to the wonderfully cute phrase "untodid" and provided a patch making PIO_fdopen return NULL when give bad flags. Leo applied the patch, but Melvin Smith warned that this might be a bad idea. Silence after that.

groups-beta.google.com#0955bdf6c42d7ad5

embedding initialization

Jeff Horwitz was having trouble embedding PIR into C. Leo provided some pointers. Jeff was happy.

groups-beta.google.com#340eb5f582823fbc

Test::Builder updates

Previously, Michael G Schwern announced an update to Test::Builder. chromatic asked if it was worth the upgrade. Michael replied probably, but I don't think anyone has acted on it.

groups-beta.google.com#4f4b690aad4b7085

miniparrot

Robert Spier created a miniparrot at Bernhard Schmalhofer request. This miniparrot does not replace our make system, but it does make our website less camel centric.

groups-beta.google.com#a02606ff9a675e14

Autrijus gets the commit bit

Leo, Autrijus, and Chip had one of the nerdiest conversations ever. The summary of which is that Autrijus gets commit priveledges for Parrot. The general consensus was that he was too productive in Haskell and we needed to hobble him with a real mans language like C.

groups-beta.google.com#4ff623e3cd504a1f

Parrot 0.2.0 "NLnet"

Leo announed the release of Parrot 0.2.0. This one didn't seem to make it to slashdot. Kinda sad, cause I always get a warm feeling when I know about stuff before /. Oddly, google groups seems to have lost the email.

really make realclean

make realclean failed to find a few files. A flaw forcefully fixed by Jerry Gay.

groups-beta.google.com#18f381f84fa2936d

load_bytecode shouldn't segfault

Bob Rogers made it not. Leo applied the patch.

groups-beta.google.com#033a9daa09e266dc

tell me sweet little lies

Patrick put out a request for a rudimentary set of lies and damn lies. People are welcome to provide benchmarks too.

groups-beta.google.com#c631eba65d3914ee

Parrot Panic

Leo found that parrot was panic during start up. He rolled that patch back.

groups-beta.google.com#0e347dcda6994a2b

make testr

Leo put out a request for a make test target which would invoke parrot twice, once to compile to PBC and once to run it. Dino Morelli provided a patch. Leo applied it.

groups-beta.google.com#82ed1327511876c2

trans test failures

Jens Rieks opened a ticket for some failing test long ago. Now he wondered if there was a status update. Warnock applies.

groups-beta.google.com#577a01d8ece6819c

parrotcode.org update

Leo noticed that parrotcode.org needed a little loving. Robert Spier provided it. He also mentioned that people could provide their own patches for it against svn.perl.org Now is your chance to contribute to parrot's public face.

groups-beta.google.com#0e6d70a3111e7708

runtime/parrot/library search

Jonathan Scott Duff wondered why runtime/parrot/library wasn't in parrot's search paths. Leo added it for load_bytecode.

groups-beta.google.com#5c3eecc29c906898

on the road to a tiny parrot

Leo began down the road to miniparrot. Creating first a parrot without a config and using that to generate a config.fpmc for parrot. A larger parrot is then created with the config information provided.

groups-beta.google.com#3c20fba58ff26540

MMD pmcs

Bob Rogers posted some questions about how to work with multi subs and provided a preliminary patch. Leo provided some answers but felt that the calling conventions should be pinned down before the patch.

groups-beta.google.com#12a8965b20f47ffe

commit bit for Matt

Matt Diephouse was given a commit bit. Congrats. Leo took the opportunity to remind himself to run "make test" before committing.

groups-beta.google.com#27241f1437349aa8

NULL deref in real_exception

Nicholas Clark found a NULL refer in real_exception. Leo explained that he needed to call Parrot_run_native to allocate the exception structute (and set the stack top pointer). Nicholas didn't want to set the stack top as he was tracking some perl refcount bugs.

groups-beta.google.com#553050aade71547f

PGE::Hs

Autrijus provided a patch to make PGE escape strings as expected by Haskell FFI. Patrick suggests a slightly different approach which Autrijus took.

groups-beta.google.com#fe7da5fcfd60abce

Bug in Boolean.pmc

John Lenz found and fixed a bug in Boolean.pmc. Leo applied the patch, and Juergen Boemmels provided a test.

groups-beta.google.com#c607085a119c0b8a

svn revision number for releases

Andy Dougherty noticed that Configure.pl printed failed for release tarballs as they don't have .svn directories. He changed it to print done. Leo applied the patch.

groups-beta.google.com#cc0c17bc1121f0f7

spawnw @args

Jeff Horwitz provided a patch which allows spawnw to take an array. Leo applied it (with a brief reminder on platform specific ettiquette).

groups-beta.google.com#2943dc9085cadbc7

dynclasses build problem on Win32

Jerry Gay fixed a problem building dynclasses on Win32. Leo applied the patch.

groups-beta.google.com#f5cb85bdab6dccba

basic JIT questions

Millsa Erlas had a few basic questions about Parrot's JIT. Leo provided answers.

groups-beta.google.com#70b1228c1a52baec

@ANON tests and test fixes

Jerry Gay fixed some tests and added some more. Leo applied the patch.

groups-beta.google.com#7e35467c2a796f11

filepath manipulations

Leo put out a request for some filepath and string manipulation support in parrot.

groups-beta.google.com#e8d004953498e264

call syntax abstraction

In a failed attempt to dewarnock himself, Leo reported his call syntax abstraction proposal.

groups-beta.google.com#28f480998102a287

Old Tags

Nick Glencros suggested renaming (or possibly removing) some old tag files from our CVS days. Leo was unsure about the removing option, but liked the renaming one.

groups-beta.google.com#66c327425726a9a4

MinGW build problems

Fran\xE7ois Perrad provided a patch to fix some build problems on MinGW. Leo applied the patch.

groups-beta.google.com#179f66a06c9a42b1

omniscient debugging in parrot

Andy Bach wondered how much of Omniscient Debugging would be possibly in parrot. Leo reasoned that it could be added with some work. It would involve replacing all mutating vtables with special versions that store extra information to allow them to roll back.

groups-beta.google.com#7e3edecbf5fa176f

embedding/extending interface

Jeff Horwitz wondered who else was actively working on mebedding parrot. Nicholas Clark provided a very uncertain pointer.

groups-beta.google.com#0dd2d3aa6c0c6eac

OO support in Parrot

Autrijus explained that Parrots current implementation made attribute access difficult. Leo went further saying that he felt it was wrong. The concensus is that Parrot needs to allow non-absolute access to attributes, so Leo did it.

groups-beta.google.com#13f88903b1e55817

groups-beta.google.com#594cf52e370df2c5

config.t fails

Fran\xE7ois Perrad found that config.t fails without first doing a make clean. His initial solution was deemed a little too quick and too dirty by Leo.

groups-beta.google.com#93c5d7e042370d94

find ops return for not found

Patrick provided a patch which changes the return value of find and find_not to the strings length (instead of -1) if the character does not occur. Warnock applies.

groups-beta.google.com#36e82c42a485fbf4

clean *_config files

Jerry Gay provided a patch to clean the _config files during make clean. Leo applied it.

groups-beta.google.com#a195783cc90b9c74

MMD for logical ops

Leo changed the logical ops to return one of their operands as appropriate.

groups-beta.google.com#af299cdf102930a1

warning cleanup

Jerry Gay provided a patch to remove a warning on Win32. Bernhard Schmalhofer applied it.

groups-beta.google.com#16502accf94d42c3

Namespace updates?

Tim Bunce wondered whether any resolution with respect to namespaces had been reached. Leo told him not much.

groups-beta.google.com#989bedc1fe123bba

rules questions

Dino Morelli was trying to add some unit tests when he ran into questions. Patrick provided some answers but suggested further conversation move to p6l, which it did.

groups-beta.google.com#dc17602c62d57779

md5 library clean ups and speed ups

Nick Glencross posted some updates to the MD5 library. This led to a few rounds of speading it up and comparing its speed with various other MD5 libraries. The final result is: slower than C but MUCH faster than pure perl.

groups-beta.google.com#7c7b42dbc44b14eb

disassemble segfaults

Bob Rogers pointed out that disassemble was sefaulting on some byte code. Leo fixed it.

groups-beta.google.com#61b3155e3eaff442

s/internal (exception)/real \1/

Jerry Gay provided a patch which changed some internal exceptions to real ones. Leo applied it.

groups-beta.google.com#373a611f6b34a423

failing tests

Tim Bunce reported some failing tests on OSX. Leo fixed them.

groups-beta.google.com#c6ff787f1079c944

small typo in PBC_COMPAT

Uwe Voelker provided a patch fixing a typo in PBC_COMPAT, which chromatic applied. He also noticed that p6rules/*.t did not have plans. Patrick welcome all updates to PGE tests.

groups-beta.google.com#a73dd18bfb03a1ba

t/p6rules/ws.t

Dino Morelli added some tests for p6rules. Patrick applied the patch.

groups-beta.google.com#e25f37048470ebac

index up bug in PGE

Jerry Gay found a bug in PGE involving escaping sequences strangely. Leo tracked it down, and Patrick fixed it.

groups-beta.google.com#46f720060661402f

Parrot on Python

Kevin Tew wondered what the state of Python on Parrot was. Sam Ruby and Michal Wallace provided updates. Hopefully it will take off again soon.

groups-beta.google.com#fc7d16edadaba47e

paths with spaces need to be quoted

Ron Blaschke provided a patch to quote some paths that needed it in dynclasses. chromatic wondered if that would break with paths that already contain quotes.

groups-beta.google.com#60c1fff22857df30

.cvsignore

Juergen Boemmels noticed that the SVN repository still contains some .cvsignore files. He suggested removing them, but a few things need to be updated to the svn world before that can happen. Bernhard Schmalhofer made it happen.

groups-beta.google.com#35b62bf9ee9a9d1a -- request

groups-beta.google.com#b7f5598c02bc4d98 -- resolution

Null pointer deref

Adrian Taylor found a NULL pointer problem in Parrot. Leo fixed it.

groups-beta.google.com#1f5a2ab4fd84866a

Parrot embedded in XSLT 2.0

Colin Paul Adams wondered how he could get information back from an embedded parrot. Autrijus pointed him to Parrot_call_sub with a signature of "SS" (takes a string and returns a string).

groups-beta.google.com#c4c507469c556412

thread detatch hangs on win32

Jerry Gay noticed that thread detatch was hanging on Win32. He provided a patch to skip it so that other tests could fail in its place. Leo applied the patch.

groups-beta.google.com#036422b041a4fe07

Perl 6 Language

Semantics of Coroutines

Joshua Gatcomb wondered whether coroutines could be invoked with new arguments on successive invocations or not. Some pointed out that allowing the arguments to change is a more powerful model, but I didn't see anything definitive.

groups-beta.google.com#ae65c8bd8165b831

function composition operator

Michele Dondi wondered if there was a function composition binary operator. While one does not exist, one can be added (as was demonstrated much later by Ingo Blechschmidt.

groups-beta.google.com#2ff554091f0fb10e

initialization of state vars

Ingo Blechschmidt wondered how state vars and parentheses would interact. Larry replied that his examples were probably correct.

groups-beta.google.com#8e4420427d51b692

== > automap?

Brad Bowman wondered if a single arg sub or block would automatically map when used on the sharp side of a pipe. Luke Palmer thought this might be too much dwimmery.

groups-beta.google.com#ac666ce340cf819b

refactoring IDE

J Matisse Enzer wondered if perl 6 would have strong IDE tools like refactoring supported or automated syntax completion. Larry explained that he would like to make it possible for Perl 6 to support these things "just as Perl 1 built in all the system interfaces".

groups-beta.google.com#8075562d8daca262

reduce precedence

Juerd wondered what the precedence for the reduce metaoperator was. Luke Palmer informed him that it was listop precedence.

groups-beta.google.com#a80524d587239256

piping into random things

Juerd wondered about piping into various things like arrays, scalars, hashes, and filehandles. Larry gave one of his characteristically speculative answers.

groups-beta.google.com#3fa6c4d58fe52fd6

That's why they call me Mister Bitterness

Juerd wondered what "complain bitterly" meant in the context of the yada operator. Larry explained that ... would fail, ??? would warn, and !!! would die.

groups-beta.google.com#ffee56c03be536be

isa specifics

Stevan Little wondered how isa would act when called with junctions, nothing, classes, or instances. Larry explained that it would act intelligently by autothreading, returning a list of all options, returning a bool, or something I didn't follow.

groups-beta.google.com#ac1d8dceea604062

available operators

Juerd created a somewhat lengthy list of available operators, hoping to inspire someone to come up with a good operator for block labels. This led to a very meandering thread.

groups-beta.google.com#d0e890171b91a4ab

reduce meta operator

Some of you might be confused by my earlier meantion of a reduce metaoperator. Larry introduced one. Much debate ensued, but Larry seems fairly set on it.

groups-beta.google.com#cc032c3414c33e07

override built ins

Andrew Savige wondered if he would be able to redefine built in functions like read in perl 6. Larry explained that perl 6 would give you so much rope that you could hang yourself from several tree while blowing off your own foot with it.

groups-beta.google.com#7f31dec5a5de054a

opening stdout

Gaal Yahas wondered how to open stdout or a file named "-". Larry explained that io() would have the dwimmy parts like opening stdout, while open would not try and dwim.

groups-beta.google.com#0d073403e2d9e2ab

adverbial blocks explained

Terrence Brannon stumbled upon the phrase "adverbial blocks" but didn't understand what it meant. Luke Palmer provided a very clear and cogent explanation.

groups-beta.google.com#cb47e226098267a2

circular dereferencing

Autrijus noticed that the autodereferncing of references would cause an infinite loop for circular refernce. Larry recanted and decided that the full on autodrill down was not as cool as he had initially thought, but he did warn us that next week he might think it was even cooler.

groups-beta.google.com#bdda0e7a23279fcc

scoping of $/

Ingo Blechschmidt wondered what sort of scope $/ would have. Luke Palmer replied that it would be lexical just like perl 5. Larry corrected him pointing out that it would actually be lexical, unlike perl 5.

groups-beta.google.com#c17c3cb539812c71

binding subs return values

Joshua Gatcomb wondered what binding of subs return values would do by default. Juerd answered that it would not allow modification unless the sub were declared as an lvalue.

groups-beta.google.com#133ea4e1aee20e19

use fatal, no fatal, exceptions, and undef

Aaron Sherman wondered how various scopes fatality levels would interact. Luke Palmer explained that you need to do 360s on the control pad while holding block. He also provided some thorough examples.

groups-beta.google.com#c961990fd9b8090f

xml grammar in Perl 6

A while back Juerd wrote a perl 5 script to transform the EBNF spec of XML into Perl 6 rules. Now that Pugs might be able to support it, he suggests that it would be a good project for a brave soul. No takers yet.

groups-beta.google.com#e99e0455a5a65b9f

mailing list indexing

Aaron Sherman posted a link to his initial version of an annotated version of the mailing list. He asked for comments, but Warnock applies.

groups-beta.google.com#17956d9845658363

prefix adverbs

Someone who posted to google groups (and got the unfortunate name mangling of [email protected]) asked if it made sense for $a = stuff @foo, how = 'scrambled', 1, 2, 3; > to be written as $a = :how('scrambled') stuff @foo, 1, 2, 3; > or some such. Sadly, we will never know.

groups-beta.google.com#759611c278caea0d

semantics of split

Autrijus asked if he had the right Pugs was splitting correctly. It wasn't, but it is now.

groups-beta.google.com#769c309f02b8daa5

S29: punt

Rod Adams announced that he found the real world intruding too much and was going to have to leave off his work on S29. Sam Vilain, Aaron Sherman, and Max Maischein all volunteered to take up the effort.

groups-beta.google.com#cf637256c360f285

chomp!

Joshua Gatcomb wondered exactly what "is chomped" did. Larry Wall explained exactly what "is chomped" does.

groups-beta.google.com#e8f9bc28bf62d8d9

character classes

Patrick, based on his experience with PGE, suggested a slightly new syntax for character classes in perl 6. Larry liked the syntax and went on to muse about other unresolved issues involving character classes.

groups-beta.google.com#4ad613ff400c8219

Numification of match objects

Autrijus noticed that numification of match objects made strings of digits numify to 1 (i.e. true). He didn't like this. Actually no one did. So it has been changed to numify as one would expect. After all, it can numify to 0 but true.

groups-beta.google.com#e7c68ffcd90eab2e

traits and properties API

St\xE9phane Payrard wondered when and how traits would interact with properties. Brent 'Dax' Royal-Gordon and Larry provided answers.

groups-beta.google.com#cec5b69464b40e22

single element lists

Jonathan Scott Duff wondered what (1)[0] would do. Larry though that we would have to specialize ()[] to parse as (,)[].

groups-beta.google.com#26d0e71ecf3a2add

Void type?

Thomas Sandla\xDF, Rod Adams, and Autrijus speculated about ways to deal with a Void type. Nothing definitive came out of it though...

groups-beta.google.com#b313716c6e95b3a8

uniquely identifying objects

Stevan Little wondered if there was a way to uniquely identify objects in Perl 6. Larry pointed him to the .id and the associated =:= operator.

groups-beta.google.com#6077664d96af973e

BEGIN and lexicals

Benjamin Smith wondered if BEGIN could modify lexicals that don't really exist yet. Larry expressed the opinion that one should be able to modify compiler state in begin blocks; however, he did not answer the question of what Benjamin's example does.

groups-beta.google.com#ff5dc221a156fbdf

:: vs ::: in rules

Patrick confused many people when he asked about the difference between :: and ::: at the top level of rules. The answer seems to be that ::: will fail the entire match while :: will simply fail it at that offset in the string on which it is attempting to match.

groups-beta.google.com#0baafe36b1533bac

negatives of junctions

Larry noticed that != and !~ will confuse english speakers when applied to junctions. Luke noticed that defining $a != $b as !( $a == $b ) works. And tragedy was averted.

groups-beta.google.com#81a1eeddf0fe0110

boxed types from builtins

Aaron Sherman worried that many built in functions return boxed types which could cause a big speed hit. Rod Adams explained that this was necessary but optimizations would be made available.

groups-beta.google.com#bfd9ff194b555aed

./method

Juerd suggested using ./method to mean $?SELF.method (in an attempt to solve the long standing debate of $?SELF.method vs $_.method). Much discussion ensued although the general response seems favorable.

groups-beta.google.com#b3e9bc09565e4d0c

operators everywhere

Rob Kinyon noted that there seemed to be an extremely large number of operators. He expressed concern, because he had believed that P6 was going to have a small core with moduls. Larry explained that most of these operators were in fact generated by combining a small set of operators and meta operators in a combinatorially explosive way, giving the wonderfully lucid example of [\xBB+^=\xAB]. Much discussion ensued.

groups-beta.google.com#3f82db7c6ffaa285

BUILD and submethods

Ingo Blechschmidt wanted to be sure that all appropriate submethods would be called when they should and that only the correct one would be called when they shouldn't all be. Larry answered that it did work as he expected.

groups-beta.google.com#e9174e5538ded4a3 -- question about subclasses

groups-beta.google.com#f1afbb4dcfb70859 -- same question but with roles

$. vs $:

Luke Palmer was having trouble understanding what the difference between $. and $: was. Aaron Sherman prointed out a few differences according to A12.

groups-beta.google.com#b6b426ef593bb255

not 4,3,2,1,0;

Autrijus wondered what the signature for not was in perl 6. Larry explained that unlike perl 5, perl 6's not function should act like !<<[4,3,2,1,0] .

groups-beta.google.com#497ff7b0b8174f0f

multiple colons in MMD

Luke Palmer caught Autrijus off guard when he pointed out that multis could have multiple levels of : each of which is less important than the last. Larry surmised that they might not have documented this hard enough.

groups-beta.google.com#e3ba8ab5be76d706

Nested Captures

Carl Franks started a very long thread when he noted that nested captures caused extra layers in the match array rather than counting parens like perl 5. This led to discussion of 0 vs 1 indexing. Discussion ensued and it was decided that $0 == $/[0] and there was much rejoicing. groups-beta.google.com#f6d7519e8ce9a504

'1.28' * '2.56'

Autrijus wondered what path '1.28' * '2.56' shoudl take to arrive at 3.2768. Larry told him that infix * used prefix + to numify non-Num args.

groups-beta.google.com#832fa3e105a673c6

methods from roles vs classes

Aaron Sherman wants to lazily load a role but only the first time it is necessary. Luke Palmer assured him that his example would work correctly.

groups-beta.google.com#66c00f93abebc818

currying and defaults

Aaron Sherman, in his efforts to get up to speed on S29, wondered how currying would interact with default values. Larry explained that default values would not be bound until the invocation of the curried function.

groups-beta.google.com#a3a24b1502bda023

precedence of custom infix ops

Ingo Blechschmidt wondered how to define the precedence of custon infix ops. Luke Palmer pointed out the looser, tighter, and equiv traits (by default it is equiv( &infix:<+> ) ).

groups-beta.google.com#639f21ba2587a6f9

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